Mid Side M-S Matrix Construction Information

Construction information for DIY projects, including the MS Mid Side Matrix, Width Controller, Phono Transfer System, Insert Switcher and the Dual Class-A Amplifier. You can post your baby pictures here.
tron888
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Re: Mid Side M-S Matrix Construction Information

Post by tron888 » Mon May 16, 2016 12:35 am

hello!!! im thinking to use this between line (LR)- MS-EQ (compressor maybe...)-MS (LR out) - Compressor - Limiter ... so would be only changing the signal to ms for that section of the mastering process.. im not sure if i need the whole switcher board!
what do you think? :D
as for the relay boards, i would only like to mute the S or mute the M to get solo on those signals while process... and a true bypass which i could do with igor boards.. but i am not sure how to fit these 12 or 24volt boards along with 18v power.. surely some values on stuff would change!

i am a bit clueless about this but will start probably from a clean build with no relays and go from there! :D just wondering about impedances...
i think the eq on input has 10kohm impedance, output 80ohm, max level +26dbV into 500ohms or greater
hopefully im providing the right information!!!

*EDIT... i saw these boards you posted a few comments ago... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Four-DPDT-Signa ... xyZzlTdMGD
would they work for what i need here? and if yes, for the // 2 "solo" switches, and the bypass // do i need 3 boards total? whew maybe im out of my depth here hehe im going to struggle im sure!

thanks again!
all the best
P

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mediatechnology
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Re: Mid Side M-S Matrix Construction Information

Post by mediatechnology » Mon May 16, 2016 5:49 am

If you only wanted full bypass for one device you could use one Insert Switcher board stuffed with only four relays.
You could use that to bypass either what was in the MS insert, or, in a different location the whole MS chain.

The bypass board is 24V (using 12V relays).
The coil connections float and are not tied to any ground.
Thus, if you only have +/-15 to +/-18V available you can sub-regulate the available 30 to 36V down to 24V using a 7824 or LM317 regulator.
In this configuration the regulator IC and relays common to the -15V (or -18V) rail.
The +15V rail (+18V) connects to the regulator input.
The regulator output provides +24V relative to the minus supply rail.
The relay coils "see" 24V and the relay current returns to the negative supply rail instead of 0V.

Those ebay relay boards are ideal for the solo/mute functions.
They can also be used to provide full bypass but there will be a lot of off-board wiring compared to using the insert switcher.

The device impedances seem pretty normal so I wouldn't worry about them being used in the insert.
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tron888
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Re: Mid Side M-S Matrix Construction Information

Post by tron888 » Mon May 16, 2016 10:25 am

aah amazing thanks a lot for the detailed explanation!!! i might go for the insert board instead!! maybe i get a few since it looks like a neat design and very useful, from what you just explained!!!

about power supply, i am still browsing ... i saw uber power supply from expat seems to be pretty fine! maybe you have another one you can recommend! :)
for power transformer, i guess toroidal 18VDC 1A is my first choice (because i think i got one lying about) but would love to stand corrected if you have a suggestion!

again, all the best!!
P

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mediatechnology
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Re: Mid Side M-S Matrix Construction Information

Post by mediatechnology » Mon May 16, 2016 10:29 am

This Velleman works and is pretty simple: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=672

Five Fish also has a nice one.
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tron888
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Re: Mid Side M-S Matrix Construction Information

Post by tron888 » Tue May 17, 2016 10:23 pm

ive ordered velleman`s :) now waiting for everything! anxious! :D

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dagoose
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Re: Mid Side M-S Matrix Construction Information

Post by dagoose » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:39 am

I don't like crossposting, but in this case I think it's ok, otherwise, delete it :)

Going to build myself a new mastering console with the MS matrix (love it, use this one https://www.dagoosemusic.nl/studio/stud ... g-console/ for 7/8 years!) but in this case with the insert modules as well. It will be a 2u unit with multiple inputs and outputs, output gain, polarity swap, LR swap and It will have two inserts with MS for EQ.
I want to make it switchable froms stereo to MS, so for the passive appoach I need 8 relays (this will work, use this right now), but it's also possible to use 4 relays by having the in/out active stages stilll in line.
I was wondering if this will work without gain or other problems.
Anyone?

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mediatechnology
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Switching the Insert from MS to LR

Post by mediatechnology » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:04 am

Hi Jeffrey! It's been awhile since we've seen you here. Welcome back.

You can use a half bypass with 4 relays and I don't think the inputs would load that much.
The THAT1246 has a differential input impedance of 24KΩ.

If you want to more easily switch the insert from stereo to MS and use fewer relays (2) you might consider using a DPDT relay to alternate feeding insert return CM/CS from BL/BR. That would present stereo or MS at the outputs of U5 and U6.

To handle decode use a second DPDT relay to alternate feeding return GL/GS from FM/FS. In that situation make the 20K resistors at U9's inputs 10K. Add 10K resistors in series with U10/U11's outputs. This arrangement not only switches the decode source from MS to LR but also corrects the gain change from MS decode build-up by making it -6 dB for MS and 0 dB for LR.

Sound like a plan?

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dagoose
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Re: Mid Side M-S Matrix Construction Information

Post by dagoose » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:51 pm

Thanks Wayne,
This was basically what I had in mind indeed, except for the 10k resistors instead of 20k. Clever!
So simply said, 20k is for MS and 10k for LR? I can do that :)

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mediatechnology
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Re: Mid Side M-S Matrix Construction Information

Post by mediatechnology » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:00 pm

dagoose wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:51 pm
Thanks Wayne,
This was basically what I had in mind indeed, except for the 10k resistors instead of 20k. Clever!
So simply said, 20k is for MS and 10k for LR? I can do that :)
Thank you!
Yes, exactly. 20k for MS and 10k for LR.

You might want to put your name on the list for EEQ PC boards to add to the MS insert at FM/FS.
Since you already have an MS the EEQ only requires the 4 dual op amps and has bypass on-board.
http://www.ka-electronics.com/kaelectro ... tic_EQ.htm
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