MM flat preamp … i need a set of fresh ears

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Gold
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Re: MM flat preamp … i need a set of fresh ears

Post by Gold » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:38 pm

If the setup is for listening enjoyment then anything goes. Whatever you like best is best. If you are going for accuracy then without access to the source file or tape there is no objective way to judge anything.

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mediatechnology
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Re: MM flat preamp … i need a set of fresh ears

Post by mediatechnology » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:05 pm

Gold wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:38 pm
If the setup is for listening enjoyment then anything goes. Whatever you like best is best. If you are going for accuracy then without access to the source file or tape there is no objective way to judge anything.
+1 on that.

I guess what made me chose the lighter-loaded transformers was it's "click suppression" combined with sounding just a tad darker.
As far as reproducing clicks with great accuracy I think the transformerless was probably more accurate.
The clicks may quantify the "color" I hear in the transformers.

I'm not sure if the waveform tells us much though.
When I did my 1 kHz square wave tests loading the DL-103 in 100Ω and 1KΩ the results looked nearly identical but they sounded vastly different on music.

I'd like to know which one is the easiest to de-click.
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Re: MM flat preamp … i need a set of fresh ears

Post by billshurv » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:12 pm

Gold wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:38 pm
If the setup is for listening enjoyment then anything goes. Whatever you like best is best. If you are going for accuracy then without access to the source file or tape there is no objective way to judge anything.
Never said it didn't was just stating my preference. However I would argue that "there is no objective way to judge anything" is incorrect in the case of the transformer ringing like buggery on any transient and if you can at least stop that then you are in a position to season to taste.

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Re: MM flat preamp … i need a set of fresh ears

Post by Gold » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:13 pm

It’s all a bit of a moving target. The lighter load that had some click suppression is a good example. A click is distortion of the original waveform. You could argue it either way. Suppressing the click is closer to the original waveform or not suppressing the click is accurately reproducing what’s there.

When I said there is no objective way to judge anything I meant to judge the overall setup’s fidelity to the source. Like maybe the transformer ringing gives a nice sparkle.whai knows?

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Re: MM flat preamp … i need a set of fresh ears

Post by JR. » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:20 pm

Objectively I would want the click to be reproduced with the fastest transient response, the better to let it come and go, and de-click it. Program material wants objectively flat frequency response and low distortion.

But I don't try to play my old records these days so disregard my opinions.

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Re: MM flat preamp … i need a set of fresh ears

Post by mediatechnology » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:29 am

JR. wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:20 pm
Objectively I would want the click to be reproduced with the fastest transient response, the better to let it come and go, and de-click it. Program material wants objectively flat frequency response and low distortion.

But I don't try to play my old records these days so disregard my opinions.

JR
I agree with that particularly in the context of a flat RAW transfer where you want as few things as possible in the way that can't be undone later. The DSP should see the most accurate click possible.

The more-subtle clicks in the transformer signal path may only be more subtle for that signature of click. Some types of clicks could sound worse.
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Re: MM flat preamp … i need a set of fresh ears

Post by mediatechnology » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:07 am

I just had an idea pop into my head as to why a step-up transformer-coupled input would sound so different than a resistively-loaded one.

A resistively-loaded transducer's load is "reflected" back into the generator immediately.

A transformer-coupled load is reflected back into the generator after a delay.
If the cart has a mechanical step applied to it that step is delayed twice when transformer-coupled before being reflected back into the generator.
The first delay is primary to secondary, the second delay is secondary to primary.

The generator is not seeing the same load when resistive termination is compared to transformer-coupled secondary termination.
Resistive termination is in "real-time;" transformer-coupled termination is delayed.
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Re: MM flat preamp … i need a set of fresh ears

Post by Gold » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:53 pm

mediatechnology wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:07 am
A resistively-loaded transducer's load is "reflected" back into the generator immediately.

A transformer-coupled load is reflected back into the generator after a delay.
Damnit. I've been happy with the transformer and the MM preamp. I had no interest in the MC preamp but this piques my interest. I'm wondering if what I think is a resonant peak around 10K with the Denon 103 is being exacerbated by this phase shift? It's so damn hard to measure this stuff.

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Re: MM flat preamp … i need a set of fresh ears

Post by mediatechnology » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:08 pm

Gold wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:53 pm
mediatechnology wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:07 am
A resistively-loaded transducer's load is "reflected" back into the generator immediately.

A transformer-coupled load is reflected back into the generator after a delay.
Damnit. I've been happy with the transformer and the MM preamp. I had no interest in the MC preamp but this piques my interest. I'm wondering if what I think is a resonant peak around 10K with the Denon 103 is being exacerbated by this phase shift? It's so damn hard to measure this stuff.
The mental analog I came up with was a reverb spring.
1T from driver to pickup.
1T reflected from pickup to driver.
2T round trip to driver.

With resistive loading the incident and reflected occur at the same time.
With transformer loading the reflected is delayed on its way back to the generator.
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